Curse

Ellix Cantero · Oct 06, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyldchild777

This allows younger players to save up their own cash and buy their own game, without letting parental types knowing about their online activities, via needing a credit card for fees. These younger players haven't yet learned how to be civil and polite to others.

To go off on a tangent here, I believe this is more of a reflection of the poor state of (on a large scale) American society or even (on a lesser scale) world societies. I had learned how to be civil and polite to others around the same time I learned how to communicate.

Skuld · Oct 06, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

You are forgetting the main problem

"TITLE OR EMOTE OR BYE"

You're seeing what you want to see.. unranked teams forming all the time and if you don't see them, ffs start your own.

TelephoneNP · Oct 06, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

I'm rank 8 and I sometimes enjoy playing in r3/4/5 balanced groups to help them out and some turn out to be really good teams. I played in a r6 bspike earlier today and we went to Halls. It was better than some of the r9+ bspike teams I've played in, which goes to show RANK, TO AN EXTENT, DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 06, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Yeah. And most of the old people will leave... :/

wait...if most of the r9+ people leave...and the arena is flocked by new pve players...then I will have r12 in like a week.

Formosa · Oct 06, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

My opinion: low ranked people CAN understand PvP, but are far less likely to understand HA. You can be the greatest GvG monk in the world, but have no idea how to react to HA pressure (noobs who are going to say monk=" make red bars go up lololooolololol" stfu). I'm not a dick when I make groups, I'll generally give you a shot if you're r3+ (unranked, pug for a week to get R3 and learn the game then I'll give you a shot), but if you suck I'll kick you, sure (and when I kick people it has to be pretty bad, I actually kicked a rank 10 guy before because he was crap at assassin). If you're a great monk that's only R3, I'll add you to my friend's list and you'll be the first to get an invite if I make another group, regardless of rank.

In conclusion: Rank can, but might not be a factor in how good you are at playing an HA monk.

EDIT: I only use monk as an example because I end up pugging them the most often (guildies/friends only want to play fun builds, monking = boring IMO)

The truth itself · Oct 06, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Start a team youself as a rank 0, is just as trying to catch the a fly with your tunge. It will take forever and you wont get anything out of it.

In other words, yeah, pretend like it's viable to start a new HA group with a team 7 other newbies.

Newbies cannot teach newbies, only good people can teach newbies.

Effendi Westland · Oct 06, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The truth itself

Start a team youself as a rank 0, is just as trying to catch the a fly with your tunge. It will take forever and you wont get anything out of it.

In other words, yeah, pretend like it's viable to start a new HA group with a team 7 other newbies.

Newbies cannot teach newbies, only good people can teach newbies.

So right!

Rera · Oct 06, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

You know how you can force good players to teach newbies? It's called obs mode. I'm sorry, but new players no longer have any excuse not to learn on their own. If you want to play with good players, you have to put in the work, period.

You can complain about rank and elitism all you want. The fact of the matter is that most good players will not play with newbies or low-ranked players, and that's a *good thing*, the reason for which I outlined in my earlier post. You cannot expect to just show up in HA and be invited into good teams. It doesn't happen in any other competitive game, it doesn't happen in real life (most students straight out of college aren't going to land management positions at top companies), and it sure as hell doesn't happen in Guild Wars.

Rank might not be perfectly accurate, but it's the best system we have. Most players aren't going to waste the time taking an r3 into HA just to find out that, oh, they actually do suck after all. Then everyone leaves and you're back in HA trying to form another group. No. As I said before, the r9's might not all be godly players, but you're more likely to get a good player that has r9 than a good player that has r3. That's just how it is. If you don't like it, you can grind out some rank yourself, or you can stop playing GW. No good teams are going to take you just because you're a nice guy.

I'm sick of all the people who think they're somehow entitled to good groups right from the start, when everyone else had to work for the privilege.

The truth itself · Oct 06, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

You know how you can force good players to teach newbies? It's called obs mode. I'm sorry, but new players no longer have any excuse not to learn on their own. If you want to play with good players, you have to put in the work, period.

You can complain about rank and elitism all you want. The fact of the matter is that most good players will not play with newbies or low-ranked players, and that's a *good thing*, the reason for which I outlined in my earlier post. You cannot expect to just show up in HA and be invited into good teams. It doesn't happen in any other competitive game, it doesn't happen in real life (most students straight out of college aren't going to land management positions at top companies), and it sure as hell doesn't happen in Guild Wars.

Rank might not be perfectly accurate, but it's the best system we have. Most players aren't going to waste the time taking an r3 into HA just to find out that, oh, they actually do suck after all. Then everyone leaves and you're back in HA trying to form another group. No. As I said before, the r9's might not all be godly players, but you're more likely to get a good player that has r9 than a good player that has r3. That's just how it is. If you don't like it, you can grind out some rank yourself, or you can stop playing GW. No good teams are going to take you just because you're a nice guy.

I'm sick of all the people who think they're somehow entitled to good groups right from the start, when everyone else had to work for the privilege.

While what you say is definitely true, it does not come with a solution to the problem.

It's impossible for new players (especially those who will come when GWN comes out), to get to rank 3, without a lot, and i mean really, a lot a patience. Noone new to anygame, will spend the next three months losing in HA trying to get to R3.
It's just not going to happen.

What will happen, is that many new players will come to HA for their first time and get sweared at, blaimed and basically not given a chance by anyone, this will either result in them leaving the game entirely(not likely, if they like it much) or just completely stay away from competive pvp (HA, GvG).

Also: I don't have en easy solution for this, but if there were an easy solution, chances are that ANet would have done it already.

Winx.ZN · Oct 06, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The truth itself

Start a team youself as a rank 0, is just as trying to catch the a fly with your tunge. It will take forever and you wont get anything out of it.

In other words, yeah, pretend like it's viable to start a new HA group with a team 7 other newbies.

Newbies cannot teach newbies, only good people can teach newbies.

Negative. So wrong. You teach yourself by playing with other newbies against good people. I never had anyone hold my hand and teach me a damn thing.

That attitude is the reason HA is the way it is. People dont want to learn for themselves, they MUST be taught. They need a teacher, cant figure out things for themselves. A lot of people dont even bother to read up here on guru what each map type is and how to win on them. They put no effort forth into becoming good, they just want to be.

When we faced a match, and got raped, I looked at what the other people were running. Found out why what we were running was so easily rolled by them. If I got a hex on me I didnt know what it was, I would hold my mouse over it and see what it did. I got to see what the usual builds and FOTMS people ran were, and built accordingly. Soemtimes I would grab a bowl of cereal press B and watch HoH matches. Took off auto camera and found someone running the profession I prefer. I had the same skill bar, but I did not use the skills the same way. So I watched them and learned (I have a few of those people on a "watch" list since there is always something I can learn). Expecting someone to take pity on me and allow me in a group that far exceeds my own abilities takes longer than just forming your own newbie group.

Yeah it will take a long time to get ranked, but not a long time to get good. By the time you earn your first couple of ranks you should be building up a good friends list. People waiting around and complaining that R12s dont hold their hand is more of a problem than the rank itself. It took months for me to get to the level playing feel of R6, but once I did, it was worth it since I played MANY matches as MANY different professions and learned a great MANY things. I also unlocked everything there is to unlock so far, so it was not a waste of time.

How does the saying go?
Give a man a fish, you feed him one day...
Teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime...
Or lazy bastard just watches people fish, grabs a magazine from the newstand or book on fishing, and learns to do things on his own.

Rera · Oct 06, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

This phenomenon isn't unique to HA or Guildwars. As I said, it exists in every competitive environment. Unlike a cooperative environment, people in a competitive scene have no incentive to be friendly to newcomers or beginners. A top guild with connections never has to recruit newbie players to 'grow' a core group, because they already have a pool of talented players to draw from.

Let's take the competitive fighting game scene. Good players typically play amongst themselves. Most of them will not spend the time to teach anybody, because they have no reason to. Anyone is welcome to go to the arcades and play against them, but if you aren't any good you'll only be on the machine long enough to get double-perfected and kicked off by the next guy. So how does anyone learn? Before the advent of widespread match recording, the only way to learn was to find these good players and get your ass kicked repeatedly, while you slowly figured out why you kept losing. It could take months of losing, over and over, to finally be able to take even one round off of the top players. With all the match recording going on now, you can download videos of amazing play from top players every week, and figure out their tricks and tactics. Learning has become a lot easier, if you're willing to put in the effort.

It's the same way with Guildwars, and actually, you guys have it a lot better. You don't have to drive anywhere or fly around the world to play top players - you just get online and go. You have an obs mode that plays matches from top guilds 24/7. Use the resources that you have, they're there for anyone that's serious about it.

I'm not sure what kind of solution you guys are looking for, honestly. Casual players are obviously going to be put-off by the environment in HA, but that's always the case. To draw on my above example, casual fighting game players are the guys that just sit in their living rooms or local arcades and play all of their scrub friends. It's fun and easy, and they'll never be any good. The serious players are the ones that download match videos to study and drive miles and miles to get the shit beaten out of them by top players. It's a lot of work and dedication, but they'll eventually get good enough to make a showing at tournaments and maybe have a shot at winning.

The reality of the situation is, again: if you want to play with good players, you're going to have to put in the work and effort. If you're just a casual player, in it for fun, you're going to have to settle with whatever you can get - usually playing with friends or unranked PUGs.

Where is the need for a 'solution'? Exactly what are we trying to fix? I don't see it.

byteme! · Oct 06, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

This phenomenon isn't unique to HA or Guildwars. As I said, it exists in every competitive environment. Unlike a cooperative environment, people in a competitive scene have no incentive to be friendly to newcomers or beginners. A top guild with connections never has to recruit newbie players to 'grow' a core group, because they already have a pool of talented players to draw from.

Let's take the competitive fighting game scene. Good players typically play amongst themselves. Most of them will not spend the time to teach anybody, because they have no reason to. Anyone is welcome to go to the arcades and play against them, but if you aren't any good you'll only be on the machine long enough to get double-perfected and kicked off by the next guy. So how does anyone learn? Before the advent of widespread match recording, the only way to learn was to find these good players and get your ass kicked repeatedly, while you slowly figured out why you kept losing. It could take months of losing, over and over, to finally be able to take even one round off of the top players. With all the match recording going on now, you can download videos of amazing play from top players every week, and figure out their tricks and tactics. Learning has become a lot easier, if you're willing to put in the effort.

It's the same way with Guildwars, and actually, you guys have it a lot better. You don't have to drive anywhere or fly around the world to play top players - you just get online and go. You have an obs mode that plays matches from top guilds 24/7. Use the resources that you have, they're there for anyone that's serious about it.

I'm not sure what kind of solution you guys are looking for, honestly. Casual players are obviously going to be put-off by the environment in HA, but that's always the case. To draw on my above example, casual fighting game players are the guys that just sit in their living rooms or local arcades and play all of their scrub friends. It's fun and easy, and they'll never be any good. The serious players are the ones that download match videos to study and drive miles and miles to get the shit beaten out of them by top players. It's a lot of work and dedication, but they'll eventually get good enough to make a showing at tournaments and maybe have a shot at winning.

The reality of the situation is, again: if you want to play with good players, you're going to have to put in the work and effort. If you're just a casual player, in it for fun, you're going to have to settle with whatever you can get - usually playing with friends or unranked PUGs.

Where is the need for a 'solution'? Exactly what are we trying to fix? I don't see it.

Very well said. The resources are there for new players to use and learn. They have no excuse to complain that they can't get better because higher ranks won't accept them. USE THE OBSERVER MODE or play, play, play with whomever you can join. Only way to learn is to go out and do it. Nothing is broken so nothing needs to be fixed. There will always be lazy people who are gonna be a step behind the rest because of their dependance on others to do things for them, teach them, and guide them.